Tennis bookmakers
Mac spits the dummy at Bet365 over their low limits.
May I ask if you are running a serious online betting
agency?
I am attempting to have a bet on the final of an
international tennis tournament and am told that the
maximum I can bet is AUD$12, or about 5 quid.
How does your husband book-make? If I wanted to bet
$12 I would ring my sister for a bet, as that is about
her limit. She is 9 years old. You cannot expect your
operation to be taken seriously with those limits.
No wonder any wagering chat room I log into describes
your firm as one of the most embarrassing and useless
in operation.
If you are going to continue to keep these ridiculous
limits in place, please refrain from posting odds
for an event, as you are only wasting the time of
people who actually like to have a bet. If anyone
wanting a serious punt is discouraged from betting
with you, why don't you put a heading on top of your
website stating that you have limits that allow for
only the smallest of players, or people who are prepared
to lose.
I look forward to hearing from you as to why this
limit would ever be introduced.
Mac gets his response from Bet365.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, 15 June 2003 6:13 PM
Subject: Bet365 Limits
Well I got my response for this week from Bet365.
I have attached for a laugh for all.
By the way, I am not usually as scathing with my
e-mails - only to Bet365.
Response:
Thank you for your email. Our traders set the internet
limits so that the majority of our customers can take
advantage of the prices we have advertised. Our call
centre is available 24 hours a day, and deal with
our traditional telephone customers as well as internet
customers who wish to place larger bets than the limits
allowed on the internet, as they can ask the traders
for a decision as to whether we will take the bet.
The limits in general are dictated by our liabilities
on an event, and the prices on any given selection,
and are reviewed regularly by our trading team, subject
to the demands of the business.
Kind Regards, Tiziana
Customer services
Crimson announces he is the latest member to be
barred from William Hill.
-----Original
Message-----
Sent: 15 October 2003 11:17
Subject: World's biggest bookie
Dear all,
I too have been barred from tennis betting at William
Hill. The only thing that is more uncompetitive than
an English bookmaker is an English Bank. No offence
Colin.
Crimson Tide.
Colin compares Australian bookies favourably to
most English ones.
-----Original
Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2003 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: World's biggest bookie
WH may be the world's biggest, I don't know, but
they have a very sharp attitude toward customers.
You don't have to be winning for long before they're
on to you. So no offence taken, CT.
My WH limits are pathetic - at all of my many accounts
with them. One little known fact is that they actually
allow you to open as many accounts as you wish in
the same name, and you can thereby place multiple
bets on the same selection. However, the limit tends
to shrink rapidly as you do it. Eg you want to place
300 but they'll allow you only 100. You place 100
on account 1 and find they'll take only 60 on account
2, etc.
The other thing is that the telephone betting alternative
does not apply the limits - they refer each bet to
the compiler, but almost always accept them. Of course
one day they'll probably cut my throat on that too,
but for the past 3 years I've had no probs.
One thing, though, is (and it matters to me as I
do such a lot of arbing) that telephone betting is
useless for arbs as the other leg of the arb has invariably
melted by the time the clerk comes back with the answer
from the compiler. It's also a pain that the phone
side doesn't open till 10:00 (19:00 AEDT).
Add to that the fact that you probably have to have
a UK-issued debit card to open an account, and there's
not much point in my mentioning it to you! Their prices
are rarely competitive anyway.
I'm a great fan of Aussie bookies. They play the
game more seriously than any of the others. I've not
been cut by any of them, though I find it hard to
believe they will retain 'bad' customers forever.
Maybe they are just prepared to give me more rope
to hang myself than the jumpy UK bookies are.
The UK bookies who have closed my accounts, Skybet,
Vic Chandler, Easybets (sort of hybrid UK/Caribbean/Chinese)
and others often admit, when I pointlessly call them
to argue, that they only want customers who consistently
lose money.
The other thing about the Aussie bookies is that
they are safe. I've lost more than I care to admit
with bookies (usually UK) who've gone under). I just
wish there were more of them (Aussie bookies, that
is), but I imagine the tight regulations act as a
severe barrier to new entrants (whereas anyone with
CoolPage and twenty quid in the bank can open an internet
betting site anywhere else) and one can't have it
both ways.
It's also unfortunate that one of them (Aussie bookies)
is about to disappear as it is taken over. That will
leave just two as far as tennis is concerned (unless
there are others I don't know about).
Colin.
Mac strikes again, this time getting stuck into
William Hill.
Crimson Tide and Colin, below is what I sent to Will
Hill about what I thought of their recent efforts
- I advise us all to do the same just to let them
know that their decision will affect their business.
Cheers, Mac.
(e-mail to Will Hill)
Hello there.
From what I can gather from this response, you are
basically saying that your "traders" have decided
that they do not want me to bet with you, due to the
fact that upon reviewing my account you have discovered
that I have actually had some success in tennis punting.
As you are an English Bookmaker, this does not surprise
me in the least, as I have had similar dealings with
Bet365 and Skybet.
It is becoming apparent to me that in England the
term "Bookmaker" is thrown around quite randomly,
as in my opinion none of you deserve this recognition
if you are not prepared to put up a price and then
"make a book" on the bets wagered on the prices you
set. It seems that although you claim to be the worlds
biggest bookie, you are actually concerned about the
effects of such an insignificant punter like myself
in your overall operation.
The part that amazes me the most is the fact that
you set your book to such a disgusting percentage,
being well over 105% on tennis matches, that no matter
how much you allow me to wager, if you are a half
decent bookmaker you would be able to balance your
book against the amounts I bet.
Rather than cutting off anyone with any semblance
of an idea of what they are doing, maybe you should
try to actually balance your book and generate income
this way, rather than just relying on people with
no idea to take some of the pitiful prices you put
up, in the hope of making an easy dollar.
As for reviewing my account at some future time,
please do not bother, as I have no intention of directing
any of my business through your firm again. With the
amount of reputable and reliable bookmakers now established
in Australia and the Caribbean, and these firms setting
decent betting limits and framing markets as low as
101.5%, I do not see any need to use Will Hill at
all.
I am sure that as you continue to restrict the activities
of punters like myself, you will find more and more
of your business is lost to these more competitive
operators, which I personally believe is a good thing.
Competition in any market place weeds out those not
prepared to compete. Hopefully you learn all about
this in the near future as you watch your turnover
decline as more and more money is wagered through
these firms.
I never expected the name Will Hill to be associated
with chasing only the uninformed punter and the easy
dollar, as I thought this was the sole domain of Bet365
and Skybet, but it appears I have been proven wrong.
I am more than happy to direct my business through
companies such as Pinnacle Sports, 5Dimes and others,
and will encourage as many other people as possible
to do the same.
Regards, Mac.
PS. Please delete all my credit card details and
personal records from your database.
'Kafelnikov' reveals that at least one foreign
bookie is apparently running scared of us.
Original
Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: World's biggest bookie
Another tale about another bookmaker, Victor Chandler
(English ?), supposedly one of the biggest and best
after William Hill. Be interested if others have had
the same experience.
Some time earlier in the year, I attempted to start
an account at Victor Chandler over the internet. I
started the account, made the first deposit but found
I was unable to even place my first tennis bet. On
calling them, they said I was being barred .... without
even having placed a single bet.
On pressing them for a reason, they said it was because
I was "Australian" and Victor Chandler were not allowing
new accounts from punters in Australia. They then
refunded the deposit and closed my account without
any further discussion or a single bet being placed.
Seems many Australians in this group have been raiding
VC as well. In the end, there is no use complaining
.... they're just running a business the way they
see fit. Time will catch up with William Hill, Victor
Chandler, Skybet, Bet 365, etc, sooner rather than
later, as there are less and less "mugs" around for
them to feed off ... thanks to the accessibility of
the internet and Betfair.
K.
Mac bemoans the loss of the much loved 5% Thursday
reload.
-----Original
Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: Reload Removed
Gents,
Sportingbet have pulled the pin on the reload system,
which is a bit of a bummer. Now I will have to find
$100 a week from somewhere else to pay for the Xmas
holiday.
Mac.
Guy sings the praises of bonus stripping.
Subject:
RE: Reload Removed
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:41:
What a shame. Same with Sportsbet Australia, though
they've retained a 10% racing reload just during the
spring carnival.
Interestingly I had a look at my betting returns
since I started betting on sport seriously at the
beginning of the 2002 AFL season and out of 147.39
units of profit, 119.9 are from actual betting returns
and 27.49 units are from bonus stripping, a very substantial
percentage.
Betting returns fluctuate up and down but bonuses
just keep gradually stacking up, the opposite of brokerage
when you play the sharemarket :-)
Does anyone think there might have been a co-ordinated
decision by bookies to move away from bonuses, or
is that giving them too much credit for organisational
skills? Some must be barely on speaking terms, the
competition is so strong and it also must be galling
when at least 4 or 5 of your competitors claim to
be 'the biggest online bookie in the world'. By the
way, great letter to Will Hill Mac. Can I use it on
Smartgambler?
Guy.
Mac shows a momentary tenderness towards bookies.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2003 1:47 PM
Subject: RE: Reload Removed
Feel free Guy - a bit less sarcastic than my normal
ones.
I don't dislike bookies as such, just the fact that
they won't accept wagers on a market they have set
to 105% from certain people they deem as "winners".
Surely if they had any sense at all they could flag
bets from certain people to assist them to frame markets,
as even with so much margin that they have, they still
manage to get them wrong frequently, and hence our
profits (not selling your info short here Tony).
Still no point worrying about it - there are plenty
more Non English based bookies out there.
Mac.
Terry reveals how a proper bookie should treat
winning punters.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2003 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Reload Removed
I once saw a comment attributed to Mark Reid - not
sure if it is true or not - but it was along the lines
that he welcomed winning punters to his service and
had several that had won hundreds of thousands of
dollars but were still most welcome.
The reasoning given was that when one of these winning
punters placed a bet it was a signal to him that he
should lay off that runner with another bookmaker
or the TAB as there was a really good chance it would
win whilst if he had taken a large amount of bets
on a runner but none of the "successful" accounts
had backed it then it was likely he was safe!
Seems like very good logic to me.
Terry.
(Rod Cleary, an Australian racing bookie, once
said much the same thing to me. Editor.)
Very informative bookie analysis from James.
I mainly use 5Dimes and Pinnacle.
They consistently offer the best tennis lines out
there. I also started to keep smaller balances at
Canbet, Bet365, Betfair and Gamebookers and got the
best line every time. Roughly 85% of my bets were
at 5Dimes and Pinnacle though, so you could definately
just live with those if you wanted.
Get Neteller. Most of the books I just mentioned
use Neteller. 5Dimes and Pinnacle do. There are no
fees with Neteller and it's free. Neteller payments
by sportsbooks are also very quick, normally a few
hours.
Books to avoid:
Any book that doesn't consistently offer close to
the best price. You'll find that the best lines in
tennis come from very solid books. None of the books
I mentioned are going anywhere. Some places require
you to be 21, but I doubt many people here will have
that problem (I do!).
Just do your homework on a book before you deposit.
Check out
sportsbookvreview.com (SBR)
bet2gamble.com (B2G)
sharpsportsbetting.com (SSB)
The highly rated books at SBR are very solid, although
he has some rated poorly which are really fine. B2G
is very, very honest. SSB has a lot of sharps on its
forum and can shed light on experiences they've had.
There are stacks of reliable bookies, it's just that
there are more stacks of unreliable ones. Many of
the reliable also don't offer decent tennis lines
(many don't even offer tennis). Unlike many other
sports, you don't need many books for tennis, 3-5
is fine (hell just 5dimes and pinnacle will do!).
The tennis rules don't really matter too much. The
big one as you probally know is how they grade retirements,
etc. You'll have decisions that go your way and ones
that don't. It'll even up over the long run. It only
really matters if you've got an arb on.
James.
Further useful comparisons from Brett.
Hi D2.
My favourite books for tennis betting are 5Dimes,
Pinnacle, Centrebet and Sportodds.
I also have books with some of the other Oz books
(Canbet and SportsTab) and a number of UK ones (Stan
James, Victor Chandler, Ladbrokes, Will Hill, Paddypower,
etc) but use them mainly for golf rather than tennis
betting.
The big plus for the Oz books is that they will take
bigger wagers and won't chase you out of town or limit
your bets to $5 if you start winning, which is the
problem with a number of overseas books.
Biggest culprits are
Bet and Win (known as bet and whinge)
Bet365
Will Hill
In relation to getting money in and out I've had
no major problems - as you probably know most of the
Oz books are ok. As James said, you need to join Neteller
to deposit in 5Dimes and Pinnacle. It's a bit of a
pain to do it but once done it has worked ok for me.
On the UK books I've had to harrass Ladbrokes a
few times but have found Stan James and especially
Victor Chandler very easy to deposit and withdraw
from (although they do charge credit card fees) Those
2 books also take larger bets on tennis matches (especially
Victor Chandler) but their prices are nothing special.
Cheers, Brett.
Mac lists his favourites.
I fund my Pinnacle account via bank transfer rather
than Netteller, although I do have a Netteller account.
Pinnacle even refund the $20 transfer fee to your
account, and in my eyes are by far the best book to
deal with.
I also use Sportodds, Sportingbet (on majors), Sportsbet
(on majors), Sportingodds, Bill Hurley, Centrebet,
Pointbet ( who I find are not mentioned that often
but give some great odds at times and service is fine)
and Canbet.
I am very negatve towards all the "cowards" who
set markets to about 108% and then refuse to accept
wagers other than ridiculously small amounts. In this
category I have
Will Hill
Skybet
Bet365
Gamebookers
as my main culprits.
Only 6 more sleeps until 2004 launch - bring it on!
Mac.
James compares bookie limits and 'sharp friendliness'.
"Only 6 more sleeps until 2004 launch - bring
it on!"
Mac I hear you ;)
I wouldn't mind hearing from the bigger bettors in
the group about books that have higher bets limits.
I think I've asked this before, but I forgot anything
that might have been discussed. From what I last saw:
Pinnacle varies, but I saw mainly $2700 limits posted
in October. They are sharp friendly.
5Dimes have a limit of 1k. I think I remember them
not being sharp friendly, but I could be mistaken.
Canbet. When I last contacted them they offered a
max of $500 at a time. When the line shifts or 5 minutes
have passed you can bet again, and keep repeating
the process until your've got the amount you want
down. Sharp friendly.
CRIS. CS told me limits of $2700. Lines are decent,
but never the best. Only a place you'd use if you
need to get alot of money down. Sharp friendly.
Intertops. Average lines. Limits of 2k+ though from
what I remember. Again, only a place to use if your've
got a large unit size.
Betfair. No max bet, as long as there's enough action
against you. Of course it's sharp friendly.
BetWWTS. Same group as sportsbet. Lines are probally
average, 2k max bet.
Olympic. Never used them for tennis, but apparently
they only hold less than 3% on tennis. Low limits
though. Sharp friendly.
Know several other offshore tennis books just haven't
bothered looking into them. I'd think between Betfair,
5Dimes and Pinnacle I could get 3kUS units down on
good lines.
Any suggestion from the larger bettors about sharp
friendly books with high limits?
James.
Mac defends Sportodds.com
James,
Sportodds never have an issue accepting large wagers
either. Odds not always the greatest but usually competitive.
Mac.
PT also has a go at William Hill
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, 11 January 2004 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: Probably just coincidence, but.....
Will Hill really are a joke...I have also been barred
from tennis betting there, presumably for winning
too much.
I guess it will happen to everyone eventually if
you continue to back Tony's recommendations with them!
I have also had a lot of problems getting my money
back from them...they seem to keep coming up with
excuses not to pay. Has anyone else had similar problems
getting their money out?
PT.
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